Priest Interviews Man Hunger-Striking for Persecuted Indian Christians
Day 7 of 7-day hunger-strike for persecuted Indian Christians
This interview was conducted on 11 January, the 7th day of my 7-day hunger-strike on behalf of persecuted Christians in India.
Fr. Joshua Lickter: Hi, thanks for joining. My name is Father Joshua Lickter. I am the priest at Incarnation Anglican Church in Roseville, CA. For a little over eight years now I’ve been involved in advocacy work standing up for the rights of persecuted minorities in India. Today, I’m going to talk briefly with one of my parishioners and a good friend of mine, Pieter Friedrich, who has been fasting for the past week now so he can stand in solidarity with Christians in India who are experiencing extreme suffering and oppression right now.
I wanted to give him an opportunity to share some of the reasons for that. So, Pieter, why don’t you explain, if you could, why it is you decided to set aside the past week, and go without food, and experience physical suffering during this time.
Pieter Friedrich: Yeah. It’s now my seventh day of a 7-day hunger-strike to protest against the persecution of Christians in India. My last meal was on the evening of January 4th. I’ll be breaking my fast tomorrow. Tomorrow morning. I chose to do this for a number of reasons.
First and foremost, I chose to do this in order to stand in solidarity with the Indian Christian Church, and to demonstrate to the persecuted Christians in India that there is somebody — there’s somebody abroad, outside of their country, a fellow Christian — who understands what they’re going through, and who is willing to stand up and speak out, or temporarily starve themselves. In order to stand with them.
Secondly, I did it because I believe that there’s an urgent need for the American Christian Church — for Americans in general — to speak out on behalf of the issue of persecuted Christians in India as well as of other persecuted minorities in India. And it’s my intention to dedicate a large portion of my time in coming days to, specifically, that issue of persecuted Christians in India. And I wanted to launch that effort with an extreme, attention-grabbing effort.
And, I suppose, thirdly, I wanted to do it because, whether they see it now or see it later, my hope is that the American Christian community and — specifically, especially — the American Christian clergy would see what I’m doing and see that there is somebody — there’s a Christian in America — who not only understand this issue but also understands that it’s an issue of such great gravity that it’s one that is worth practicing some level of self-denial. From there, my hope, my prayer, is that the American Christian clergy would — beyond my hunger-strike, as they begin to, hopefully, have an opportunity to be informed and educated about the issue — be prompted and provoked to speak out and stand in solidarity with their suffering brothers and sisters in India.
JL: So, let’s speak for a moment to American clergy, or American Christians, who might be seeing this. Maybe they’re thinking, “Okay, I’ve done a little bit of education, and yeah, it looks like things are bad for Christians in India right now. What can I possibly do that can make any difference in such a large-scale series of oppressive events happening like that? I’m just a little old American who goes to church on Sunday and prays for people around the world, but what real-world impact can I have?” I’ve heard that since you’ve been engaging in this fast you’ve actually received some incredible feedback from Christians in India who’ve responded very favorably to you fasting. You want to share some of that so others can realize the kind of impact something like this can have?
PF: Yeah, I’ve received literally hundreds of messages and comments from people who are Christians — Indian Christians, mostly in India, I believe — who are thanking me for doing this. They’re so encouraged by the fact that somebody outside of India knows about their situation, and their suffering, and their struggle. They’ve talked about how this boosts their morale, it gives them increased courage to stay the course, that they wish that other people were aware of this. And just pouring blessings on me.
Now, as far as American Christian clergy — I know it’s cliche, but I would first point to the fact, the reality, even though it’s cliche, that one person can change the world. And so, this one simple, humble pastor or priest or what have you, somewhere in America, if they should stand up and speak out, God only knows what kind of impact that could have.
But beyond that, there’s a desperate need (and this a very simple thing for American Christian clergy to do, in doing which they face no actual risk to themselves, unlike those suffering Christians in India) for them to just start speaking. That could be something as simple as offering a message to their congregation on one Sunday a year, one Sunday a month, just telling them that, “Hey, your brothers and sisters in India are suffering. They’re facing persecution.” Beyond that, a little bit more complicated, coming together with other Christian clergy. Going to their diocese, going to their gatherings of clergy that are held annually, their synods, and speaking out to their fellow clergy members and telling them that, “This is an issue. This is an issue that demands attention — and urgent attention — from the American Christian Church.”
They could then, beyond that — there’s many that are politically connected, and even if they’re not politically connected, there’s opportunity for them to just pick up the phone and call their member of Congress, for instance, and tell them, “I’m a clergy member in your district. I’m concerned about this issue. I really want you to speak on it.” Or, if you are more politically connected, go and set up a meeting or something like that, and sit down, and actually educate the member of Congress about what’s happening.
JL: Absolutely. Well, we’ll re-address that in a moment. What I wanted to ask you now that we have everybody’s attention is to sort of illuminate what exactly is happening right now that’s so horrible. It’s one thing for us to say, “Yes, Christians are being persecuted in India right now.” But we hear that all the time about it happening in China, or in Egypt, or any place in the 10/40 window — how it’s just common for Christians to be persecuted in these areas. So, to say “yeah, Christians are being persecuted in India right now” can just kind of land on deaf ears because it’s something people are used to hearing. But what exactly is happening in India right now that’s so alarming?
PF: Well, the other day, I just interviewed Dr. John Dayal, who lives in Delhi — the capital of India. He’s a retired journalist who has, in his retirement, become a prominent leader in the national Christian community there, served as head of a large number of organizations, formed one of the most prominent human rights groups for Indian Christians: the United Christian Forum. And one of the things that he said was that at this very moment, there are not rivers of blood flowing, but they could be — to paraphrase him — they could be tomorrow.
JL: Tomorrow? Why is that?
PF: That at any moment, that massacres are not happening now, but they could be happening tomorrow. And the reason for that is, to give a bit of a big picture overview, briefly, this international human rights watchdog for Christians which tracks persecution of Christians around the globe, called Open Doors….
JL: Open Doors. Yes. Right.
PF: Their latest ranking — annually they rank countries according to the level of danger and persecution for Christians in those countries — places India as tenth most dangerous country in the world in which to be a Christian.
JL: Wow.
PF: Wow. If I’m not mistaken, I believe that’s at least the third year in a row in which they ranked India as the tenth most dangerous country in the world in which to be a Christian.
JL: Now, the other dangerous countries, none of them are democracies, right?
PF: No.
JL: But India purports to be a democracy.
PF: So there’s a number of other countries on that list. There’s North Korea. North Korea is a communist dictatorship. There’s Pakistan. Pakistan’s an Islamic Republic. There’s a number of other much smaller countries which are very oppressive but very small and in the geopolitical scheme of things rather insignificant. India, however, is a democracy. It’s the only legitimate democracy on that list of top ten countries. It is also, in one of the main distinctions between India and all those other nine countries, India is a very close ally of the United States.
JL: Right. Right. That’s shocking to hear. It’s alarming to hear. It’s all the more reason for American Christians — and even if you’re not a Christian in America, just Americans in general — to stand up against this kind of oppression. So it sounds like the groundwork is being laid right now for some massive persecution to occur. What exactly does that look like?
PF: Well, that looks like, I would say, to boil it down, it’s two-fold. You have State and non-State persecution. So, from the State side, two major things are happening. One is that the government which has been in power for the past seven years — it’s currently in its second administration….
JL: That’s the Modi administration?
PF: That’s the Modi administration, which is dedicated to a Hindu nationalist ideology which seek to turn the country into a land of Hindus, for Hindus, and only for Hindus.
JL: Well, that sounds eerily familiar. If you think of the rhetoric that white supremacist groups in our own country have used.
PF: Well, it’s Aryan rhetoric. It’s this idea of superiority of one group of people over another. It’s also this idea of “blood and soil” — that this one particular group is the only group that has a right to the land and nobody else does.
Right, so it’s the Modi government — or the Modi regime. And, on the State side, what’s been happening, particularly from the national government, is that they have been stripping away licenses of thousands and thousands of charitable organizations that operate in the country using monies that are donated from international donors — and especially Christian organizations.
JL: Yeah. I have several friends that have served as missionaries in the past in India, primarily doing benevolent works….
PF: Now, did these missionaries go there to forcibly convert people? To grab them by the neck and dunk them in the water?
JL: No, they went there because they saw that people were living in horrible conditions and they wanted to help lift them up out of the muck and mire of their existence. By giving them skills and resources to make a decent living so they could provide for their families. By teaching them things as simple as hygiene — things that we take for granted here. Just anything at all to make their lives better. They’re absolutely not going to try and forcibly convert.
PF: And not to rabbit trail too much, but it’s the appropriate moment to ask. You’re a priest. Does the faith that you follow encourage or discourage people to insincerely convert to the faith?
JL: No. In fact, we’re strictly warned against using selfish means or twisted means to try and bring about conversions in people’s lives. We’re not supposed to manipulate or do any of that. In fact, ultimately, conversion is something that we believe is up to God Himself to bring about. Our responsibility is simply to represent the love of God, as it has been demonstrated to us in Jesus Christ, in the lives of other people.
And if you study the history of India, you’ll find out that most of the hospitals there, most of the educational institutes there, were all initially built by Christian missionaries. Does conversion happen because of that? It does sometimes, but never forcibly.
PF: It’s not a requirement.
JL: No, it’s not a requirement at all. I mean, I feed people all the time. You know, I help the homeless in our community here and I never say “hey, I’ll give you this sandwich, but I expect you to be in church on Sunday” or “I’ll give you this sandwich if you accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior right now.” I would never even dream of doing that because that clearly is a false conversion, and that’s not something that we’re supposed to engage in at all. Absolutely not.
PF: So, getting back to your question. As far as State actions that are persecuting and discriminating against Christians in India. There’s this. There’s the stripping away of licenses of so many thousands of charitable — especially Christian charitable — organizations which are doing work to provide healthcare, education, etc. for, especially for, the most poor and destitute people there. There are also what are called anti-conversion laws which are being passed.
JL: In a democracy?
PF: In a democracy.
JL: Anti-conversion laws?
PF: Now, what these anti-conversion laws do is they essentially criminalize changing your religion unless you inform — and, generally in most cases, receive permission from — the government.
JL: Does that work in all directions? So, like some Christian missionary friends who went to India found something within Hinduism that was particularly appealing and they decided that they wanted to cease being Christian missionaries and embrace Hinduism, would that be allowed?
PF: No, in general, no. In general it’s discriminatory in one direction. So anybody changing their religion, whether it’s from Hinduism to Christianity, Islam, Sikhism, Buddhism, even, presumably, whatever, or a Muslim to Christian or a Christian to Muslim, whatever — in those cases, that’s where you’re under the law, and you have to inform the government, and receive permission from them. And when I say “inform the government and receive permission from them,” generally the person you’re informing is the local district magistrate who is invariably — in most cases — a Hindu.
Now, in the case of somebody who’s converting to Hinduism — or, in the case of this Hindu nationalist movement, which is aided and abetted by the ruling Hindu nationalist government of Prime Minister Modi, and strongly encourages and even organizes to “reconvert” people who have converted to Christianity or Islam back to Hinduism — in those cases, these laws, whether it’s written into the law or not, and sometimes it is, there’s an exception for people. You don’t have to inform the government. You don’t have to get permission. You’re just “reconverting.”
JL: Okay. That makes sense. So they frame it in such a way almost as if there’s a universal Hinduism present in India and anyone that decides to embrace Hinduism is just “reconverting” back to it.
PF: Well, that’s their idea. That India is a Hindu country already. They want to officially make it a Hindu nation, but their presumption is that it is, and always has been, and always will be.
JL: So, I’ve been reading a few reports about mobs that are forming outside of very small Christian congregations with very little means — that’s important to this discussion, I think. And these mobs are storming these congregations in the middle of services, they’re beating the clergy, and they’re stealing anything of value from within the churches. Is this really happening? I’ve read it from some pretty reputable sources.
PF: Yes. So, the data, according to this group United Christian Forum — which is not the only Indian Christian organization that’s tracking this data, but I’ll lean on them — is that when the Modi regime came into power in 2014, I believe that there were about 147 or 150 attacks on Christians tracked and reported across the whole country. Fast-forward seven years later. In 2020, there were 500 incidents — which is, I believe, a four or five-fold increase over seven years.
Now, these attacks have been increasing. But over the past, I would say, two to four months, they have especially escalated. There was something in about September or October where the violence and the attacks against not just Christians but also, especially, Muslims, just sky-rocketed.
And when I say “sky-rocketed,” I mean there have been conferences held around the country. Large conferences in multiple different states where, oftentimes, members of the ruling party — the national ruling party, which is a Hindu nationalist party — have been in attendance. Where these radical, hate-mongering speakers are, from the stage, calling for — literally, in so many words — people to pick up arms and commit genocide against Muslims. They’re calling for the wiping out of Islam and of Christianity. They’re talking about how, in their words, “Islam is a fast poison and Christianity is a slow poison.” So this is conferences at which, oftentimes, officials from the ruling party are present.
Now, there have also been since September/October, multiple instances in multiple states where there have been large mobs rampaging through the streets. Oftentimes rioting, oftentimes vandalizing, oftentimes attacking minority-owned businesses and sometimes homes. And chanting slogans — genocidal slogans. In this case, generally against Muslims. Chanting slogans about how they must be cut to pieces. And, oftentimes with, again, members of the ruling party accompanying or even leading the mobs.
Now, beyond that, specifically with the Christian community, what we’ve seen for the past three or four months is an escalating (I would say sky-rocketing) number of incidents throughout multiple states — and I would emphasize, emphasize, emphasize this is not in one isolated area of India. This is across broad swathes of the whole country…. And you mentioned churches where there are congregants that are maybe marginalized or impoverished, and in a rural area perhaps, which is true. But I would like to reference that it’s not just there. We’ve seen this in Delhi, in the outskirts of Delhi, which is the capital of the country itself. In many instances, we’ve seen this in urban centers and in the capital of the country.
There’s these instances where, on a Sunday, church services occur and, all of a sudden, a mob — and when I say “a mob,” it’s a mob of 50 people, 200 people, 500 people, sometimes they’re masked, sometimes they’re armed with batons or iron bars — bursts into the church, they start grabbing the congregants, beating them up, dragging them out of the sanctuary, and then smashing the sanctuary.
Over Christmas, there were a large number of instances that also occurred similar to that. We saw several Christmas celebrations, including Christmas celebrations where there’s a hall packed mostly with young children, where there are young children on stage dancing, celebrating Christmas, there’s some band with a guitar up front leading it. Then all of a sudden, a large group — I think in one of these cases, in one that I just saw this video today, there were probably about a dozen people. They barge into the church, several of them masked, and they run up to the stage, and they seize the microphone. They start chanting Hindu slogans. They demand to know why the Christians are celebrating Christmas and not Hindu holidays.
JL: In a Christian church.
PF: In a Christian church.
JL: In a democracy.
PF: In a democracy. And then they force the congregation to disperse and leave the sanctuary.
JL: Now, India has a strong police force, right, just like we have here in America to protect and keep the peace. What’s their involvement in all of this? Aren’t they rushing to protect these Christian congregations when clearly mobs are storming them? I know that here in America I would want to see that happen. I would have no problem with a police presence outside of our church community if a mob was gathering.
PF: I would desire it.
JL: Yes. Absolutely. What’s happening in India with the police?
PF: Well, in many, many of these cases it’s being reported that the police either one, show up with the attackers….
JL: Like amongst the attackers?
PF: Well not necessarily amongst the attackers, although that’s happened with past instances in years back. But, in this case, not necessarily amongst them, but with them. As in, they know that the attack is going to happen. Or, two, they show up very shortly afterwards.
They show up, and in most cases (actually, in every case that I’ve heard of), if there’s an arrest made, the arrest is made of the pastor or the congregants, not of the perpetrators. If there is an arrest made, say it’s a pastor. He’s hauled down to the police station, and he’s held at the police station, and there’ve been a number of cases where these people are actually beaten in custody while they’re being held.
JL: On what grounds? What are they being charged with?
PF: They’re not even being charged, in most cases, with illegal conversions. They’re being charged with conversions. They’re being accused of converting people — as though that were a crime.
JL: Wow. I mean, this kind of reminds me of a joke about California and how litigious of a state we are. There was a case in Los Angeles, years back, where a guy broke into someone’s house to rob the house and, while he was rummaging through the kitchen, he cut himself on a knife that was just like lying on the counter. And he ended up suing the owner of the house for damages and he actually won. It almost feels like that. Like that kind of injustice. Here’s a person that — I mean, we can kind of laugh at it, but it’s not funny, it’s true — a person that’s committing some kind of egregious injustice and the victim is the one that gets arrested and punished.
PF: Yes, and as I’ve been told by Indian Christian leaders in India, there are anti-conversion laws. They’re currently passed, they’re on the books, in about ten different states out of 28 states in India. Ten out of 28 states. There’s two more states that are currently strongly considering and planning to pass these anti-conversion laws. The national government has repeatedly talked about passing a national anti-conversion law. But as these Indian Christian leaders have told me, outside of these ten states where the laws are actually on the books, the police in these other 18 states typically behave with the presumption that there already is a national anti-conversion law, which there’s not. And so it leads to them questioning, interrogating, probing, harassing, and intimidating Indian Christians, asking them, you know, “Why are you following this faith? Why aren’t you worshipping Hindu gods? Why are you converting people? Why are you praying?”
JL: And we take for granted that part of any democratic society is the freedom of religion, and that includes the freedom to choose whatever religion you want to practice. And here you have India, which….
PF: And, in addition to that, the freedom to not have to inform the government which religion you practice.
JL: Yeah, exactly. Right.
PF: I’ve never — not once in my life have I ever told the state or the federal government what religion I follow.
JL: Absolutely. Any forms that you have to fill out with it on it, it’s always optional. That part is always optional.
PF: Yeah, and it’s usually census related or something like that.
JL: Yeah. Right. Wow. I can’t believe that that’s…. So imagine, speaking to everyone who’s watching right now, imagine if you’re worshipping in whatever congregation it is that you choose to attend, and all of a sudden, a mob breaks in and they beat you, they start to beat whoever’s leading that particular congregation, and the police come in and they start to make arrests — but they’re not arresting anyone from the mob, they’re arresting you just for being there in that congregation. That’s the kind of thing that’s going on at an increased level in India right now. It’s just, it’s so alarming.
PF: With total impunity. Total impunity.
JL: Total impunity.
PF: And these people sometimes, oftentimes, they’re linked either to the ruling party — the members of the mob. These are not just a bunch of rag-tag groups. They’re organized. They’re led, typically, by members of what’s called the RSS, which is a 95-year-old paramilitary. Which is the ideological parent of the current ruling party. Which has a large number of subsidiaries which have millions and millions of members themselves throughout the country. Now, these mobs are organized, typically, by subsidiaries of that RSS paramilitary. And they frequently have ties, essentially to the ruling party. So not only are the police complicit, not only are the police responding with total impunity, but the mobs themselves that are engaged in these violent attacks on Indian Christians, on their churches, in some cases on their homes, they are also tied, very frequently — in fact, probably in all cases — to the ruling party.
JL: I mean, we can understand this happening in communist countries or countries that are very explicitly ruled by some sort of dictator that takes away the rights and freedoms.
PF: Yeah, like China or North Korea. You know, the erstwhile Soviet Union, which was officially an atheist state. They, to varying degrees throughout their existence, banned religion.
JL: Right. Absolutely. But for that to happen now, today, in what really is supposed to be the largest democracy in the world. I mean, something like one out of every five human beings on the planet lives in India, right now, or one out of every six? Something like that. I mean, it’s massive.
PF: 1.3 or 1.4 billion people. And it has a population of approximately 30 million Christians.
JL: Well, I can understand why you would want to fast as a way of connecting with the pain that Christians and others in India are feeling right now. And I really appreciate your willingness to make that sacrifice.
PF: Well, I can tell you, I certainly haven’t stopped thinking about the issue for the past seven days.
JL: Right. Absolutely. Wow. So one more thing I wanted to kind of add to our conversation here. You know, we mentioned how we actually have a lot more power, even as individuals, here in the United States than we might realize. A little over a month ago, you and I met with our congressman — Congressman McClintock — and we shared with him some of the things that were happening in India. And he was shocked and clueless. And I certainly don’t blame him for that. I mean, you only know what you’ve been taught.
PF: Well, he was clueless, and I say that without judgment. He was clueless because your average American — Christian, non-Christian, whatever faith, whatever non-faith — does not know a thing about what’s happening in India. Whether it’s the Christians, whether it’s the Muslims, whether it’s the Sikhs, whether it’s the Dalits, other minority communities. They don’t know. And, you know, sometimes I say this. For your typical American, your typical person in the West, their view of India of India tends to boil down to the simplistic and, ultimately rather bigoted (unintentionally bigoted) view that India consists of Gandhi, Bollywood, and yoga.
JL: And the Beatles.
PF: And maybe the Beatles, if they have a little bit of… yeah, exactly. And that’s for the largest democracy in the world which contains, as you mentioned, about a fifth of the world’s population.
JL: Right. That would be like saying that America’s all about surfing and….
PF: Hamburgers.
JL: Hamburgers, yeah. Yeah.
PF: Yeah. And for a country that is such great significance, not only regionally but geo-politically around the entire globe, it’s shameful that that’s all Americans know about it.
JL: Right. I mean, I’ll be honest. For years, my understanding of India was just shaped on the Gandhi movie, and I just assumed, oh, this is how all of India is — they’re just this wonderful, large, peaceful….
PF: And nothing has changed since 1947. Since 75 years ago.
JL: Right. And it’s a place where like, full of hippies. And if you don’t like America, you can always move to India and, you know, join an ashram somewhere. And, you wear long garments. Stop shaving. You know, do all kinds of fun stuff like that. But that’s just not true to reality at all. Or if it is true to reality, it’s true to a very, very, very small portion.
PF: Well, maybe seven years ago, maybe 20 years ago, it was closer to reality like that. to an extent, although that’s still a very simplistic interpretation. But it was closer to that. Twenty years ago. In the sixties, seventies, eighties, yes. Now, and especially the past seven years under this Modi regime, which is viciously pushing, with Blitzkrieg speed, this Hindu nationalist agenda — which is xenophobic, it’s fascistic. It seeks to cleanse the land. It seeks to exterminate, to eliminate, to wipe out especially Christians and Muslims. Which, between Christians and Muslims — Muslims are at least 200 million; Christians are 30 million. And this agenda, which is embraced by the ruling party that’s been in power for the past seven years, wants to eradicate 230 plus million people?
JL: Now, those are really strong words. So, just to kind of back that up a little bit, before he was prime minister, Modi had a pretty bad reputation in terms of human rights in the worldwide community. Right? I mean, he was banned from traveling to certain countries, including United States, because of the human rights atrocities that he committed. And now he’s the most powerful man in that country.
PF: Yeah. Modi was banned from, I believe 2005 until 2014. So about nine years. Modi was banned for nine years from coming to the United States. He was also banned from entering the UK. But in context of the US, he was banned for nine years. Specifically because he was implicated in an anti-Muslim pogrom in 2002 which left several thousand Muslims dead — and estimates vary, but around at least about 2000 Muslims dead over the space of three days. In which members of his party, members of this paramilitary that I have referred to — the RSS — were the leading perpetrators of the pogrom. This occurred within, I believe, just a few days of Modi assuming his very first political office, which was, which was as chief minister of the state where this occurred — chief minister is like a governor.
So, just a few days after he assumed his very first political office, he was implicated in either allowing, at the very least, or orchestrating at the worst — and there’s a lot of whistleblowers who suggested he was actually orchestrating — this pogrom. That was in 2002. He was subsequently banned from entering the United States. However, many people in India will argue that that pogrom, and whatever level of involvement he had in it, is actually the reason that he became so popular among the Hindu nationalist movement, and that he rose to power to the point that, from 2002, 12 years later in 2014 he became prime minister.
Why? Well, a lot of people argue it’s because he solidified his reputation, his political image as somebody who was a Hindu nationalist extremist who is willing to shed blood — or allow blood to be shed — for the cause.
JL: Wow. Okay. Well, I mean, this is really firing me up, and I want to do something about this. I, of course want to pray about this, and pray for justice and for true peace in India. But more than that, I want o start making phone calls, and writing letters, and sending emails to elected officials and tell them, “Hey, this is what’s happening. We need to do something about it.”
One of the things that I was surprised by during our encounter with our congressional representative is: he had a hard time trying to figure out, well, what do you want us to do and what’s the connection? Like, how does this affect us as Americans? I do want to speak to that briefly just as an American Christian. I think that there’s a justice issue here. As a Christian, I believe what the Scriptures teach us, especially the first few verses, which tells very clearly that that humanity was created by God, in God’s image, which, if nothing else, means that humanity has certain value, and worth, and dignity. Regardless of what you’ve done in your life, regardless of what’s been done to you, regardless of whether you agree with the teachings of the Bible or not, that’s something that applies.
PF: Regardless of whether you’re a suffering Christian or the Hindu nationalist attacker.
JL: Right. Right. Absolutely. They are all made in the image of God and as such should be treated with dignity, but that dignity does not mean you have license to take away that dignity from others. It should be a dignity that honors each other.
PF: In fact, to take away that dignity from others is actually an infringement on your very own dignity.
JL: Absolutely. Absolutely. And that’s something that Christianity and other major religions teach some form of that. And I believe that’s because it’s something that is universally true. I think God has created that and established that to be universally true. But I think as Christians, we have a responsibility when we see violations of that to speak out against that, and to be an agent of change, and an agent of justice. To try and help people Use what resources we have. And as Americans, we could be be the poorest of poor here in America, and we still have a certain amount of clout and power to bring about change and influence in the world.
PF: It’s everybody. No matter how poor you are, you always have a chance to raise your voice. And raising your voice is free. It costs nothing.
JL: Absolutely. So what would you recommend someone like I do to try and help bring about change? Besides pray. Obviously I’m going to do that, but besides that, what can I do to help raise awareness with what’s happening in India right now? And, even more than that, bring about change?
PF: Well, as you’ve mentioned, pray, yes. Speak to your elected officials. Call them. And I think not just federal elected officials, but also state-level elected officials. But, you know, in my opinion and from my perspective, true change doesn’t actually typically come from the political realm. There’s a need and a value to engaging with it, but that’s not where I think the true change typically comes from. What I think is more effective is social action.
In context of being a priest: this is what I would hope and pray and be other American Christian clergy, is to speak about it. Speak about it whether that’s making a video about it, whether that’s informing your congregation about it, whether that’s, in particular (and I think this is actually the need of the hour at the moment) beginning to reach out to fellow clergy about it.
And I would say, in my opinion, that’s probably one of the most important things that needs to be done to lay the groundwork, because the American Christian Church, sadly, and I think it’s due to ignorance, is almost entirely silent on this issue
JL: Right. Yeah. They don’t know! They don’t know what’s happening.
PF: They don’t know and they need to know.
JL: Absolutely, absolutely. Well, if you are a clergy person watching this video right now, I encourage you to share it with others and let them know what’s happening in India. The only way it can happen is by people sharing it with others, who are going to share it with others, who going to share it with others. And, likewise, contact your elected officials. Let them know that this is happening. And if you have any connections in India at all, share it with them as well. Let them know that we’re praying for them.
PF: That’s very important.
JL: Yeah. People were encouraged!
PF: If you have any connections in India, encourage them that there’s people outside of the country, there’s Americans, who are aware of the situation, who are praying for the situation.
JL: Pieter here got hundreds of emails from people in India who thanked him for standing in solidarity with them. They were incredibly encouraged by the fact that someone they don’t even know, here in America, was willing to experience a degree of suffering so that he could stand shoulder to shoulder with them.
If there are any Christians in India who are seeing this right now, I want to encourage you and let you know that we hear you. We know you’re suffering, and we’re suffering along with you, and we’re praying for you, and we’re going to do everything we can to get word out so that your suffering is not in vain. We believe that suffering can be something that in the long-term can be redemptive. And by that, I mean, it can lead to a greater good.
And so, as we suffer along with you, it’s our prayer and our hope that change will indeed happen and that your voices not just fade away into oblivion, but that others will hear your stories as well and be willing to stand with you. You do not suffer alone. So we’re going to continue to pray for you and to stand in solidarity with you. However we possibly can. Don’t give up.
Pieter, is there anything else that you would like to say in closing? This has been a great, great conversation, very enlightening, and I really appreciate it. And I also appreciate your willingness to go through this fast this past week on behalf of those who are suffering. Is there anything you’d like to say in closing?
PF: You know, I think I’ve said most of what I have to say. The only thing I would end with is to those Christians in India. As I’ve said earlier, as I said when I launched this fast — this hunger-strike. To Christians, that suffering is a sign of their faithfulness.
JL: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I mean, Jesus didn’t say that we would not suffer in this world. In fact, he promised us that we would suffer in this world, but he also said don’t fear because I’ve overcome this world. And I can tell, looking at you now, that one of the reasons you’re able to do what you’re doing is because you have confidence that that’s true.
Well, thank you, Pieter. Thank you for your willingness to suffer of others and stand in solidarity with them. It’s an inspiration for me and hopefully it’s an inspiration for others who are watching as well. And I pray that they will — others will — also join in, and together we can strive to see justice happen in India, especially for those in need.
